For those who are lost, this is the post that sparked it all.
————-
I write this in response to priss’s call to ban another ping.sg user(ShadowFox) from the community but I’d like to address a more fundamental question of, “Is banning another user from a community a proper solution?”
Before I begin, I’d like to say that I too, like priss, was seething with anger when I read this because I feel that the article he wrote was a shallow yet inflammatory piece that only serves to divide people. His use of derogatory terms also only serves to inflame. In fact, his entire blog seems bent on finding differences between people and subsequently strengthening the divide.
But is banning the way to go? I don’t think so.
The truth is, people like him will always find another avenue to spread his ideology. And the act of banning someone will, in my opinion, somehow make him more attractive…it’ll bring him even more attention. You know how when a government decides to ban a movie from being screened, half the nation would be even more inclined to find it online just to see what the ruckuss is about?
Sure. It protects the dignity and the experience of the community for a while, but it’s not a sustainable solution. A better way, I feel, is for the community to have an open dialogue – for as many people as possible to talk about it. To confront it. To sling different opinions at each other and then become a more mature community(online or not) as result from that.
Relegating extremism into the darkness does not destroy it. Shedding light on it has better chance of doing that.
Note:
Is there a situation that calls for a ban? Yes. When someone threatens to affect the operations of the community. Things like severely pong cheating. Or turning ping.sg into a commercial blog aggregator(which isn’t its intent). Hacking it to bring it down. Yes. Especially if it directly affects the ability to enjoy the site experience(without giving other users a choice). That’s a right only the developers behind the site have(and even then, they do so at the mercy of the users..haha ).
Related posts:
Well said. But you missed a point.
“A better way, I feel, is for the community to have an open dialogue. For as many people as possible to talk about it. To confront it. To sling different opinions at each other and then become a more mature community(online or not) as result from that.”
That’s very true, but isn’t that a bit idealistic. I mean there will always be people who are not mature enough, or not open enough to take part in such discussions in a polite and meaningful way. There will always be members who’d get emotional or over-excited about this and flame/barrage through such discussion, and make the issue worse..
I think there is no black and white solution here, but yes, a community should try to be as mature and open as possible when dealing with such thing.
NTT: yeah that’s true. I remember a conversation with a friend years ago about how open Singapore as a nation should when it comes to ’sensitive’ racial issues and the line between being open and making something out of bounds is perhaps reached when open dialogue threatens to destroy the ‘fabric of community’.
In forums we have moderators who can intervene when things get out of hand…I wonder if there’s a way to do this at a community level. Tough considering blogs are independent I guess…
If banning members of the community is the way to go, won’t it in a way force the mentality of “comply or you risked being thrown out”?
I do agree that there is a need for the community to have an open dialogue, but here comes another issue, are we ready to listen and try to understand, even if we cannot accept the view from a particular member?
Or will we just say a flat no and flame the user in return? Just because what we think is right?
I feel that everyone is entitled to his or her view, no matter how flawed the view is, cos ultimately, we can’t change the way the person think.
Ridz, apologies if the comment I made sounded very harsh and upset. I can’t find any other way to put it across.
Well said. But you missed a point.
“A better way, I feel, is for the community to have an open dialogue. For as many people as possible to talk about it. To confront it. To sling different opinions at each other and then become a more mature community(online or not) as result from that.”
That’s very true, but isn’t that a bit idealistic. I mean there will always be people who are not mature enough, or not open enough to take part in such discussions in a polite and meaningful way. There will always be members who’d get emotional or over-excited about this and flame/barrage through such discussion, and make the issue worse..
I think there is no black and white solution here, but yes, a community should try to be as mature and open as possible when dealing with such thing.
NTT: yeah that’s true. I remember a conversation with a friend years ago about how open Singapore as a nation should when it comes to ’sensitive’ racial issues and the line between being open and making something out of bounds is perhaps reached when open dialogue threatens to destroy the ‘fabric of community’.
In forums we have moderators who can intervene when things get out of hand…I wonder if there’s a way to do this at a community level. Tough considering blogs are independent I guess…
If banning members of the community is the way to go, won’t it in a way force the mentality of “comply or you risked being thrown out”?
I do agree that there is a need for the community to have an open dialogue, but here comes another issue, are we ready to listen and try to understand, even if we cannot accept the view from a particular member?
Or will we just say a flat no and flame the user in return? Just because what we think is right?
I feel that everyone is entitled to his or her view, no matter how flawed the view is, cos ultimately, we can’t change the way the person think.
Ridz, apologies if the comment I made sounded very harsh and upset. I can’t find any other way to put it across.
For ping.sg, isn’t there a way members who disagree with what he says to get him off the top board or at least indicate disagreement.
I feel banning a blog means no one has a way to gauge the validity or rather ‘quality’ of an opinion. Leave it there. Show that the community as a whole disagrees. Let there be record of disagreement.
For ping.sg, isn’t there a way members who disagree with what he says to get him off the top board or at least indicate disagreement.
I feel banning a blog means no one has a way to gauge the validity or rather ‘quality’ of an opinion. Leave it there. Show that the community as a whole disagrees. Let there be record of disagreement.
Well, laws are created by a community to protect a community. In that sense, if someone’s post is bad enough to infringe on the beliefs of a community, then the community is justified to evict that particular person. However, it has to be justified , lah. Haha. If ShadowFox continues inciting hate and spreading falses, then I guess there need not be justification.
Just an example, will we allow porn blogs?
Well, laws are created by a community to protect a community. In that sense, if someone’s post is bad enough to infringe on the beliefs of a community, then the community is justified to evict that particular person. However, it has to be justified , lah. Haha. If ShadowFox continues inciting hate and spreading falses, then I guess there need not be justification.
Just an example, will we allow porn blogs?
Ian: I think at this point, the only way is to “poof” a post but i’m not sure how the mechanics of that work…I hear it’s a lot easier to “poof” something to oblivion while it’s a relative new post. But obviously if it’s on the top 10, it’s received quite a bit of attention already.
ignorantsoup: you have a point there…I personally wouldn’t mind porn blogs so long as there was a way for some kind of filtration(easier said than done). I’m a strong proponent for non-censorship because I think people need to be exposed to such things to become more mature.
But that said, you brought up really strong points…especially on what to do if someone spreads hate and falses… But that also makes me wonder, who determines if something is ‘false’ or simply, “different”?
There are other blogs in Ping.sg spreading the same message – We don’t like gay people. (or we don’t like people from a certain religious group)
I’ve not said anything until now because Shadowfox is not only homophobic. He’s telling OTHERS to stop be-friending homosexuals, that God hates you if you are homosexual, that homosexuals are pedophiles, and calling them names.
I really don’t think people can condone his gay-bashing behavior and keep quiet about it. At least, I can’t.
My post was never about anti-freedom of speech or anti-anti-gay. It’s about not tolerating bigotry and blatant bullying of a particular group of people.
I guess the proposition of banning anyone seems like a more evil thing to do than inciting hatred towards gay. But I guess every communities have its rules.
Ian: I think at this point, the only way is to “poof” a post but i’m not sure how the mechanics of that work…I hear it’s a lot easier to “poof” something to oblivion while it’s a relative new post. But obviously if it’s on the top 10, it’s received quite a bit of attention already.
ignorantsoup: you have a point there…I personally wouldn’t mind porn blogs so long as there was a way for some kind of filtration(easier said than done). I’m a strong proponent for non-censorship because I think people need to be exposed to such things to become more mature.
But that said, you brought up really strong points…especially on what to do if someone spreads hate and falses… But that also makes me wonder, who determines if something is ‘false’ or simply, “different”?
There are other blogs in Ping.sg spreading the same message – We don’t like gay people. (or we don’t like people from a certain religious group)
I’ve not said anything until now because Shadowfox is not only homophobic. He’s telling OTHERS to stop be-friending homosexuals, that God hates you if you are homosexual, that homosexuals are pedophiles, and calling them names.
I really don’t think people can condone his gay-bashing behavior and keep quiet about it. At least, I can’t.
My post was never about anti-freedom of speech or anti-anti-gay. It’s about not tolerating bigotry and blatant bullying of a particular group of people.
I guess the proposition of banning anyone seems like a more evil thing to do than inciting hatred towards gay. But I guess every communities have its rules.
It’s just an opinion for crying out loud.
LOL!
I was spreading the same kind of message about christians some time ago, my post didn’t get challenged by other posts. So does that mean the Ping.sg protects homos more than christians? Or the majority of active Pingers are atheists?
LOL!
It’s just an opinion for crying out loud.
LOL!
I was spreading the same kind of message about christians some time ago, my post didn’t get challenged by other posts. So does that mean the Ping.sg protects homos more than christians? Or the majority of active Pingers are atheists?
LOL!
@Ridzuan. Yes I must admit your stand is pretty strong too. I don’t know about porn blogs, but I guess there is a thin line between false and truths, especially when homosexuality is involved. We must thread carefully. ShadowFox seems to be trying to stir something up, especially when homosexuality is still largely a sensitive issue here, considering we just had a 377A debate a few months back. Haha.
That said, we should have more peace. Haha
@Ridzuan. Yes I must admit your stand is pretty strong too. I don’t know about porn blogs, but I guess there is a thin line between false and truths, especially when homosexuality is involved. We must thread carefully. ShadowFox seems to be trying to stir something up, especially when homosexuality is still largely a sensitive issue here, considering we just had a 377A debate a few months back. Haha.
That said, we should have more peace. Haha
It’s not OK to incite hate against a group or any group. Hate speech is hate speech.
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
A few of these people are not really for free speech, they are riding on the free speech banner. They are supporting shadowfox because they are fundamentalist Christians.
It’s not OK to incite hate against a group or any group. Hate speech is hate speech.
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
A few of these people are not really for free speech, they are riding on the free speech banner. They are supporting shadowfox because they are fundamentalist Christians.
From amdist Shadowfox vitriol, I discovered this .
Some of you maybe able to find blogs or from Google entries that refute the above article, but has anyone offered those articles to Shadowfox so he can read it for himself?
We can ban Shadowfox, and in fact we can even just beat him up to a pulp and defeat him by force of arms – even to the extent of killing him. But what is going to stop ShadoxFox II from building his case and anger on the same arguments?
Nazism wasn’t only defeated because Hitler and his armies were defeated. It was also defeated when the German people saw what was done and confronted with its evils to realize just how fundamentally wrong Nazism is.
From amdist Shadowfox vitriol, I discovered this .
Some of you maybe able to find blogs or from Google entries that refute the above article, but has anyone offered those articles to Shadowfox so he can read it for himself?
We can ban Shadowfox, and in fact we can even just beat him up to a pulp and defeat him by force of arms – even to the extent of killing him. But what is going to stop ShadoxFox II from building his case and anger on the same arguments?
Nazism wasn’t only defeated because Hitler and his armies were defeated. It was also defeated when the German people saw what was done and confronted with its evils to realize just how fundamentally wrong Nazism is.